When you want to really name a price, name the value that makes you feel nauseous. Like when you say it you're like 'ugh'.

Thank you for having me.

You know, I like how you're like, 'What's the short version?' because the long version has a long version. No, I'll do the short, I'll do the short. So I am an internal medicine physician trained in the US, and I also have a Master's and a PhD. My PhD is in Health Services Policy and Management. And however, my negotiation story started way... it started long ago when I was little. So I'm from a really big family. I'm number five of seven kids. And in my family there's hierarchy. There's Daddy, there's Mommy, there's my big sisters and then it goes down. So I'm at the bottom of the food chain. So I was that person who they would say, 'Go ask Daddy for this, go'. And so it was my job to go ask. And my Dad is like super smart. Like he would ask you all these questions and then I started honing my skills. Like before I go ask, I already know, okay Daddy's gonna ask me this, this, how I'm gonna respond. And then I just got better and better and better and then I took more training, read more books, did my PhD in leadership and then my skill just got better. To the extent that when I was still in the US practicing medicine full time, I was working three days a week. I had all my... I had like... I couldn't even count my number of vacation days and I was being paid full salary, all my benefits, but I was working Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. I was able to negotiate that not just for me but for all the doctors in my practice.

Hmm, that's a good one. I would have to think through to see if there's anything that has really changed because for me it's always been like a dance. It's always been like, okay, you're going to move this way, I'm going to move this way, we're going to move this way until we get to that sweet spot where both of us are happy. Right? So it's always been that. I think the order, because when I was younger it's more like, okay go ask Daddy for this, and it's more like, okay I want this. But after a while it was more like, okay so what am I going to tell Daddy we're going to do in exchange for this thing we're going to get? Right? So it got better and better and better that it's more like I give, I take, I give, I take, I give, I take. So it's like a dance where both people are just in harmony as much as possible.

So initially when I started, I started with women. Okay. But now I have more men reaching out to me. Okay. Yes. So it was women, I'm like yes women we don't negotiate enough, so I need to help us. However, if you have this desire for a particular demographics and they're not responding to you, then the other person who's responding to you, then you gotta pivot. And so that's what I did. So now I work with... I work with men and women, I work with everybody. And I've worked with doctors, I've worked with VCs. I think right now I'm working with a group of VCs, that's where like I'm pivoting a little bit more into just helping them look at the deals and then I'm like okay we can move this, this doesn't make sense and all of that. But I work with a wide range of people.

Oh man, I love your questions. So my podcast is called Negotiation Secrets. And when I started it was me talking about, giving tips on negotiation and all of that. After a while I started to pivot a little bit. I'm like, negotiation, fine, I know it's about salaries, it's about work. However, we negotiate for the life that we want. And it was when I moved to Dubai, because I left my wonderful practice that I loved so much in America and then came here because I was negotiating for the life that I want. And so now my podcast, we talk about salaries, we talk about, but we just talk about life. So what skillset do you need for you to fight for that life that you want, for you to really negotiate with yourself, with the world for the kind of life that you want to live? So that's where I am with my podcast at this point.

Yeah. And you know that imposter syndrome, it comes from you wanting to be perfect, right? So you look at yourself, you feel oh I need to have all the skills for me to achieve this. And then you don't look at the ones you already have. You're looking at, okay, I still don't know how to speak very fluently, I still don't know how to do this, I still... But you could do so much more. Rather than focus on what you have, you focus on what you don't have. So that leads to imposter syndrome. But the pattern I've seen more with women is that they're just scared of asking. They don't ask enough. They don't ask. And two things, they don't ask and they don't brag enough.

You know, growing up, Iwona, they tell people do not feel entitled. But you need to feel entitled. To a certain extent. You do not have to be obnoxious. You do not have to be arrogant. But you need to tell yourself, 'I deserve to be here. I've earned the right to be here.' If they opened the door for me then it means there's something inside me that made me qualify for this. And then you own that. Own that, own your power, own your position. Yes.

Yeah. So the thing first of all is, what's too much? What is too much, right? I'd rather be too much than too little, any time, any day. I'd rather be like, 'Oh she's too much.' Yes, I am too much, if that's what you want to call me. I think it's just getting to the point where you own your identity. Just own it, this is who I am. I remember when I... there was a job I started and they gave me the schedule. The first schedule I took it, it looked great. Then next thing they gave me the schedule, I'm seeing nights, nights, nights. I'm like, no, no, no, no, I'm not doing this. And then all my friends were like, 'Oh Gloria, you just got here. You don't want to be the doctor who...' I said, 'Oh, I want to be the doctor. I want them to know that if you give me stuff I don't like, I'll let you know that I don't like it.' I just want to let them know on time. So the next time they're doing the schedule they'll be like, 'Oh she's crazy.' Yeah. So yeah, I... that's... I don't... I want to be liked, right? I'm not like, 'Oh I don't care.' I want to be liked, I want to be respected. But if you don't like me, I really do not care. Especially when I haven't done anything to hurt you, I haven't done anything purposefully... If I hurt you or I said something wrong to you, I would apologize, that's not what I'm talking about. But if I'm trying to create boundaries or ask for what I want or I'm firm and people say, 'Oh I don't like her,' it's okay. I don't want that cheap likeness where there's really no value to me at the end of the day. 'Oh she's so sweet, she's so...' and then at the end of the day there's nothing to show for it.

So, you know there are some books you read, they tell you when you want to go negotiate you sit up like this, your face is like this, your shoulders... that's bullcrap. I am myself. However way I feel, that's how I go negotiate. So if you're someone I'm friendly with, I would go and I would go laugh. If I'm not too used to you, I would still be... because I'm a friendly person by nature, I will still be friendly. But beyond all of those externals, the most important thing is to do your homework. There's something we call BATNA when we negotiate and that's your Best Alternative to a Negotiated Agreement. So the stronger your options are, the more powerful you're negotiating. So let's say you're at a job where you like, the job is okay, and then you are going somewhere else. You're like, okay let me just try and see what's out there. And you're getting other offers. If the offers are not as great as what you have, then the way you're going to negotiate, you're not going to negotiate from fear. Because you know I already have a good option there. Right? So the more options you have, then the more powerful you can negotiate because you're not afraid.

So it depends. So even I've had people who would negotiate with me and I withdraw my offer because it's just unreasonable. Right? So because I look at the number, I'm like, so where are we going to start from? This is just unreasonable. I'm not going to... I can't even deal with you. I'll go look for someone who's more reasonable. So it's for you to first of all do your market analysis. I understand I'm the queen of 'know your value, know your worth', any time, any day. But I really mean know your value, know your worth. So if you're worth this, don't say you're worth that. Right? You could build your skillset so you become this, but when you don't have that skillset, you could go a little bit higher but do not go ask for what you do not deserve. And people are just going to... I remember when I was... one of my friends was like, 'Oh Gloria why... you're going to... you know how much you bring for the hospitals when you work for them? You bring more than a million dollars a year, so go ask for a million dollars.' I'm like, guy, no. I can't go ask for... they don't pay... there's no internal medicine doctor, except I own my practice, like no one's going to pay me that. That's going to make me look stupid. So you don't want to go ask for what's going to make you stupid. But at the same time, know the market value. And there's nothing wrong with being friendly when you're asking. You don't have to go... you don't have to be aggressive to ask. And as a woman, own your feminine power. You don't have to pretend to be a guy. Men... everybody was made specially. Men are men, women are women. I'm not trying to be a man and I... you know I am myself like a hundred percent myself. So I negotiate in the fullness of myself without trying to be anybody else. So if... I would be friendly because the more people like you, the more they give you stuff. Right? The more they let things go because they like you. So it's still to be friendly, not... you don't have to demand. You can ask. There's a difference between demanding and asking. And then also leaving room for you to go back and forth. So for me, this is how I describe good negotiation. You know you've won in any negotiation if it's a win-win for both parties, right? They trust you and they're willing to do business with you again. That's how you know you've won. Not necessarily by you getting everything you want. Because there was a girl who we helped negotiate her salary. She told us a number that... she said, 'Oh they were paying me 300,000. Let's just... I'll just throw numbers out there. She said, 'Oh they were paying me 300,000 and so we're trying to negotiate for 350.' Not knowing... and for less work hours. Not knowing she was being paid like 250 before. She didn't... she didn't... I don't know what... she gave us the wrong numbers. So we were pushing for it. They gave us what we wanted but they were so pissed at her. They were so pissed. Like they were like, 'We're going to give you guys this, do not ever come back.' That was not a win.

Yes. That was not a win. Yeah.

Correct. Especially when if you are kind of fluid in your career, you're a consultant... But another thing, so the first thing you look at is what value am I going to bring to the table? Okay. So I'll tell you in different industries. So when I consult, what I know is whatever you're going to pay me, I'm going to 10x it for you. Right? I know you're going to 10x whatever. Because there was someone who I helped negotiate, she was going to be fired. She got a raise instead. Yes. She got a raise instead. So if I know at least three times the value, that's just for me for someone who I am consulting who I'm helping to strategize and all of that. But if you work in corporate, for every role we know what the salary is. Right? You go on Glassdoor, you ask people around, you know what that value is. And then you use that as a benchmark. And then something else is you look inwards and say, 'Okay, this is what this role entails. What else do I bring to the table beyond what they're just asking for?' You know, and so now that branding and visibility is big, that's something that people can take with them and say, 'You know what? I have a million followers. Like this... I can market for you.' So those are little things you can use, you can add to the table when you're negotiating and say, 'Okay I can do this more, I can do that more, I can do that more.' That's what differentiates you from the other person.

Yeah because you can help them sell.

Oh no. I love negotiating. I do. I do. I do. And even when I don't win, I still like it. Like I've had... I've had people who have worked for me and I fired them and we're still friends. And I call them, I'm like 'Yeah, I need help with this' and they do it. Right? And there's no one who's worked for me who has stopped working for me who I cannot reach out to right now to say 'Hey I need your help' and they are happy to help me. They would respond to my message. So I love negotiating. It's not... it's not conflict. Like I said earlier, it's like a dance. I'm trying to meet your needs, you're trying to meet my needs. I'm like, okay how can I add more value to you? And I hope you're thinking of how you can add more value to me. And if you're not thinking about how to add value to me, I'll show you how you can add value to me. Right? So that's what it's all about. It's all about value. You're giving value and you're taking value back. It's an exchange. It's no war. It's like the most pleasant thing ever. Because you're thinking of how can I make this place better. So for example let's say someone wants to go ask for a raise. If I want to go ask for a raise, I'm not just going to say 'Oh I deserve a raise, give me a raise'. It's no. This raise that you're going to give to me, this is how I can help. If I'm going to ask for a new position I'm like, 'Okay so if you give me this leadership position, with this I can do this, this, this, this and this for you.' It's more like aligning my ask to the value of the company, rather than aligning the ask to myself, me, myself and I. No. It's more like what can I... this is what I can do for you. But I need this from you for me to be able to do this for you.

Because people are scared of hearing no. Okay. That's a very simple psychological explanation. It's so simple. Like people are scared of rejection. Yeah. But you know sometimes you just gotta, you know when they reject you a lot then it doesn't touch you anymore. Right? Then it becomes a challenge. Then that's when, so for me, I'm not... 'No' doesn't even touch me anymore. It may touch me a little bit, nice, like... and then I just get going again. Right? But it's more like if you say no, I could say when can we come back and revisit this conversation?

Leave. They become demoralized. They just give the barest minimum. And the employer also knows that they've hurt the person's feelings. Yes, yes, yes. So you don't close the door. You leave it open. So you could say if they say no then you say, 'What do I need to achieve for you to get... for me to get a yes? Or when can I come back?' You don't close the door, you leave it open so and then they give you a timeline and then you come back.

Well sometimes it's you say this is what I bring to the table. Sometimes it's you telling them the needs you're going to meet. So oh you have this need, I can take care of this, we can do this, we can do that, we can do that together. If we... if you give me this... Not like... It's not like you don't... Even though it's a trade, we all know it's a trade. However, you sometimes you need to... you already know what you want so you don't lead with your need anymore. You lead with their need. That makes it a lot easier. When because if someone walks up to you and they're like 'Hey Iwona, I can do this for you. Oh yeah I can do that I can do that.' You're much more interested than saying, 'You know what? I want you to pay me this.' You know what I mean? So you lead with the service that you're going to provide. I'm not saying do not ask for what you want, but you lead with the service.

It varies. Everyone is different. Depends on the role, depends on the deal, depends on the setting. So many things. So I do not go... I would have all my metrics because you do your homework. I have all my metrics. But when I go negotiate I do not go with like a preconceived idea of what this person would want. I go in there, I start to listen. I listen for what's been said, I listen to what's not been said. I listen to how they respond to some things that I say. So it's like you your ears are open your eyes are open you're very very sensitive. You okay so there are some words you say you notice the person has flinched. You're like okay you may decide to okay maybe I need to explore this a little bit or you're like okay I'm never gonna say that word again because that... You know. So it's just to be very observant and then to see... every role is different, every situation is different. There's no one size fits all.

If you feel like you deserve it. So there is no perfect time. Something else you could do is if you want a raise you can go get another job. You could go interview and then when you have an offer then that gives you like... you could say 'You know what? I really like it here, I don't want to go but I got this offer.' And you don't want to bluff too much because after a while they could call you off on your bluff. They could say 'Okay, you can go.'

Yes. Yes.

There's no hard and fast rule. It depends on who the person is, the relationship you have with the person. I've asked for like things on a text message. I'm like 'Hey... Hey, you know I really want this, what do you think?' So it depends on the relationship. Some it will be the phone, some you have to go say it in person, some it has to be an email so there's a trail. So it depends. Every situation is different. However, there are some things that would never fail you. Empathy. Hearing the other person out and then telling them that... letting them know that you hear them. Letting them know that you understand. That never fails. Right? Whatever counter offer or counter excuse they give you, you saying... doesn't mean you agree, you know. But you can label whatever emotion or whatever. You can say 'I hear you, this is... you know I can understand why you say there's no budget' or things like that. That doesn't fail when you always understand the other person. But you don't have to agree with that person.

Well there are many... there are different ways to say it. You could say... if they say there's no budget... There's something we call mirroring. Right? So we do mirroring when we're trying to get more information from you. So you could say, when they say there's no budget, you're like 'There's no budget?' And then the person starts to talk. And then the person talks again. You take the last three words of what they said and you say it again to them and they keep talking, they keep talking. You know. So it gives you more information for you to know what next steps to take or what to say to them next.

But before you say let's revisit, you gotta dig a little bit. They can't just tell you 'Oh there's no budget' and you're like 'Okay when can I...' No you're like 'Oh there's no budget?' You can't just... No, no, no, no. Because that's what they're gonna tell you. Everybody wants to maximize on their profits. So you dig in a little bit and then before you say when can I come back or what do I need to do to earn that.

Yeah. So there are two ways. So I do not recommend you going first especially when you don't know the market range. Because some things you're like I'm not really sure what to ask for at this point in time, I don't know what my... you know. So you can ask them 'What's the budget?' Yes. So if they tell you... they could tell you what's the budget and then they give you a range. You know. And then you ask them 'How much flexibility do we have with this?' You know. Or you could... if you know the market range, then you can anchor. Anchoring is when you go for... you go first. Because once you anchor, then that becomes the benchmark from which you're negotiating. On the other hand, some tricks some people do is... I don't call them tricks just like you know... is maybe when maybe you give me the number and it's ridiculous, I'm not gonna call that number back to you. I could just say I'm not gonna agree with that. I'm not gonna give it power by repeating it.

But something else is, so I have this mastermind that I used to be a part of. There's something else we tell ourselves is when you want to really name a price, name the value that makes you feel nauseous. Like when you say it you're like 'ugh'. That's so... Yes, so if you're like 'Oh 200 dirhams' and you're comfortable. But when you call that number and you're like 'ugh'. You feel nauseous. That's when you know you hit the right number.

Of course it makes a lot of sense. There are so many things you can negotiate beyond... sometimes we get fixated on salary. But salary sometimes is the least thing. Right? You can negotiate a title. Because sometimes people say... there's so much stuff people say 'Oh titles are not important'. They are important. Right? So if you go represent your company, there are places they would let you in because you are the Vice President. Right? So you could negotiate a title and say 'Well if you guys can't give me...' because it's not going to cost them anything to give you a title. You could ask for that. You can negotiate parking spot. You know. You can negotiate corner office. You could negotiate you having a secretary to help you with some of the stuff that you do. You could negotiate more vacation days. So many things you can ask for.

You yes you have to be careful. However if I'm just gonna ask for... if you're gonna give me a position, right? Just because as a trade off for salary... we did not trade off responsibilities. Just the name I wanted. Right? So you have to make it clear and say this... And if they're asking for... if they're gonna give... because number one I'm asking for a raise and you're not going to give it to me. And I'm saying okay give me this title and then you're adding more responsibility to it. Then that's when you say okay no. And you don't have to... not every offer... you don't have to accept every offer.

So the one I talked about earlier, like the girl that we were negotiating for her salary. That was one of the most surprising. Because I felt really... it was not a win in the real sense of the word win. But we won. Right? We won. But I was like oh so we could even push for this. If I... they were so angry like 'You guys do not come back. Do not come back. This is it.' But I was like oh so we could get away with this. She still works there now. Right? So I'm like so we could get away with this. So that was a win that I really liked. Then the other win was you know someone who was going to be fired. It was just reframing, letting them see she just was not letting them see all what she was bringing to the table. She was a doctor, wasn't working as a doctor. She had a Master's in Health Informatics. Did not let them know she had all of that. All the work she was doing they really did not know. I'm like oh no we gotta put this in an email and send to your boss. And she got a raise instead of being fired.

It depends. So now I am starting a Negotiation Lab. Right? So where I would have people come in, it would be like a few weeks where we are going over different concepts when it comes to negotiation. And then people can ask their questions and then go carry it out. So the people that I coach, at the beginning, depends on how much coaching they need. So at the beginning they could say 'Okay what do you think about this email?' I can say 'Okay let's tweak this around.' And it depends on the urgency. Right? So the one that is really urgent, they're going to fire you, I'll take care of that for you. Let's just secure your job first and then we can start building off of that. So it varies, depends on the need. The goal is when you are transitioning... I don't... I'm not typing your emails for you anymore because I want you to be independent. I don't want you dependent on me. I want you to get those skills so you can stand on your own and maybe help someone else.

Oh that's easy. Just keep asking. Ask. Ask your kids to bring you coffee. Ask your spouse to help you make dinner. Ask your friends if they want to hang out with you even when you don't... Just ask. Practice. That's so... because the more you ask then you don't feel hung up anymore to ask. It's small. And you don't have to wait till it's high stakes. Just keep... So there are some of my friends and some of the people who I work with... there's one lady in particular, she's like 'Oh I don't want to ask.' I'm like why? I said 'You know what we're going to do? So for every week ask for a minimum of 20 things and document that.'

Much more in your private life. Because the more you ask in your private life... because you're one person. The more you ask in your private life the more you're going to ask when you get to work. And even when you get to work just ask your boss 'Hey I may be coming an hour late tomorrow because...' You're just testing. You're just practicing. And you'll be surprised.

Oh my god. You know what? I think that mindset has to change. People think they have kids... 'Oh that's my baby.' That's just world tricking you. That's the child for the world. It's not your child. You're just helping us raise the baby. Right? When your mother was raising you, she was raising you for this moment. You're here now I'm talking to you. When my mother was raising me she was raising me for this moment, for the world. Look my mother called me... she called me yesterday evening, I was in a meeting I couldn't take the call, I got home I was tired. And then this morning I was like getting ready, I'm like oh she's in the US, I'm like oh she's still sleeping I haven't called her back right. So that's my mother. She gave birth to me. And I haven't talked to her for so long. So I'm a gift, she gave birth to me for the world. So I think women need to have that mindset to say 'You know what? My child... fine I bore this child but this child is a gift to the world so I'm not going to feel guilty.' Because if all the women who are on earth right now don't have kids, this world would end.

No. No you can't. So it's a favor you're doing the world. Someone gave birth to the President right? Someone gave birth to the Sheikh. Someone gave birth to Governors. So you're doing the world a favor. So I don't think there should be guilt. If your child is sick, you just go ask for time... like my child is... because that might be the President you're taking to the hospital. That might be a teacher you're taking to the hospital. That might be a doctor you're taking to the hospital. So do not feel guilty for helping the world... to train someone for the world. No there's no guilt.

What I want you to remember is keep asking. Because whatever... you see people go to the gym, they develop their muscle, it gets bigger, it gets stronger. It gets bigger and stronger because they use it all the time. Keep asking. Don't wait till when it's that big ask. That's when you're going to feel very nervous. Keep asking. Ask for the little things. Ask and ask and ask. And even if people label you as an asker, that's fine. But also be a giver. So you are asking and you are giving in exchange.

Oh the more you ask the more nos you're going to get.

It could be the wrong person, it could be the wrong time. Yes. And sometimes it could be...

My absolute pleasure.

Of course.

Oh that was fast. How many minutes did we do?

Oh okay.